Not cars - do we have a version of this gif for Cali?

"RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht" (ramblininexile) 10/28/2014 at 16:06 • Filed to: None

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Lowes !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for advertising 2x4s as 2x4s that didn't meet the standard for *nominal sizing* and poor labeling of non-wood as wood, so now they have to label all 2x4 products by actual size . And can't use ' and " for inch units.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! only makes it more ambiguous as to what *exactly* stuck in the judges craw - which was not per se 2x4s being labeled as such despite what some said. The pernicious expanded labeling idiocy is not misreported - that stupid shit is real.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

2x4 boards aren't 2" x 4", and everybody knows that, but if the Marin court wanted it clear they weren't calling Lowes on that, they shouldn't have made it seem like they were. "This board isn't according to the standard, and it's not actually 2" X 4" either!" Yeah, no shit, Sherlock.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 16:08

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Whelp don't need these anymore.

/throws engineering books in the garbage.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 16:10

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Blue 300 > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 16:11

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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

No. Because if there was a California version of this GIF, it would be the rest of the US + Central America + Canada + The little land bride that Palin uses to spy on Russia, floating away into the Atlantic.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 16:14

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They have the real thing, so don't need a gif.

For Sweden > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 10/28/2014 at 16:14

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Business plan:

Sue Lowe's for labeling electrical equipment polarity backwards (because it is)

Bankrupt Lowe's

Acquire all of Lowe's assets.

Have Jimmie Johnson race the #48 Oppo Car.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > For Sweden 10/28/2014 at 16:15

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And black iron pipe.

Roundbadge > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 16:19

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Wonder how long before the following is spelled out near each stock location in lumberyards:

"One-and-one-half inches by three-and-one-half inches by ninety-two-and-five-eighths inches precut studs"

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Blue 300 10/28/2014 at 16:20

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I admit watching the isolated island nation of Cali turn into Brownstown would be funny, if dire.

505Turbeaux > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 16:20

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I have 2x4 in my house built in 1820...REAL 2x4, they just keep getting slimmer and slimmer. Who the fuck builds with that twisted schwag wood they have that lowes or HD anyhow though. I think you fail at building anything straight the second you walk in the door

user314 > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 16:21

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Looks like this was animated at one point, but damned if I can find it online.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 505Turbeaux 10/28/2014 at 16:22

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Very true. Still I think Judge Homeowner fails at the grasp of how labeling, or, well, anything actually works.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 505Turbeaux 10/28/2014 at 16:28

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The big size reduction was mill-cut to planed/resized and smoothed. Because we can't have lumber that might be splintery, somebody might get a boo-boo.

interrogator-chaplain > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 16:31

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No, but I do have this one.










Also this:

Stiiles > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 16:33

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You didn't even read the first few paragraphs of the story you linked to, did you? You fundamentally misundertood the case - Lowe's sold lumber that was undersized even compared to the traditional standard undersize of a 2x4. That matters a lot, for strength and accurate building. The stuff Lowe's sold was under the minimum size requirements, and other materials were mislabeled as wood when they weren't actually wood. It wasn't that 2x4s aren't actually two by four inches. Come on.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Stiiles 10/28/2014 at 16:38

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I did read it. The first story includes the originally reported take, *which I did not duplicate*. You misunderstood what *I wrote* - which was why I included the correction. The lumber was undersize, obviously. I never claimed the take that the original story had - which was that the judge pitched a snit over 2x4s not being 2x4s *as such*. No, the labeling requirements imposed are what's farcical, and the fact that the undersize compared to 2"x4" was even cited, not that it was the point in discussion.

Roundbadge > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 16:42

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The issue appears to be that the boards weren't even 1.5"x3.5".

Perez said that the case "is not necessarily a question that Lowe's was doing anything intentionally wrong. But if they're going to advertise a softwood lumber product as a 2x4, it must meet the nominal standard. In some cases it sold products that did not meet that standard."

Having read that, it would be a real issue.

The nominal standard here is the 1.5"x3.5" measurement. It doesn't appear to be a complaint that a 2x4 isn't exactly 2"x4".

Stiiles > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 16:42

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Who do you think buys lumber at Lowe's, vs. a lumberyard? Also, when you have to use a minimum dimension to meet code, don't you think it's important that what you're buying meets industry standard minimum measurements?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Stiiles 10/28/2014 at 16:50

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In bulk of any kind? Very silly people, mostly. If the argument is that silly people should be better protected from themselves... maybe. There's a limit, though. I don't know which is worse: guy buys alleged 2x4 which is an eighth under spec because it looks vaguely right, or enters the store, sees half-page description with "3.438 inch (36.5mm) by 1.318 inch(33.5mm) nominal average, graded grain as marked" and falls to his knees crying in confusion?

Hell, I bought a piece of steel at Lowes once that was mis-UPCed as aluminum roll stock. That didn't alarm me half as much as the manager insisting I was wrong.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Roundbadge 10/28/2014 at 16:54

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All this I know. However, there is farce present here. It is of "take it away, Bugs!" scale as opposed to "take off and nuke the site from orbit" scale, but it does exist. Mandate that any lumber sold must adhere to one of the existing standards, fine. Insist that it is pointed out to people that a 2x4 is not actually 2"x4" (yes, a thing herein required) and include obstruse and very complicated labeling? That sends you straight to Bugs-and-his-saw territory.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Roundbadge 10/28/2014 at 16:57

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I'm pretty sure the fractions would be B& along with the use of quote marks. Because fuck standard practice, that's why.

Stiiles > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 16:57

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I know, those silly judges who believe that consumers should get what they're paying for, and that labels about content and size should be accurate, and that products should actually meet industry standards when they say they do!

Roundbadge > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 16:59

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We are in agreement, here.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Stiiles 10/28/2014 at 17:19

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Nice straw men. Customers should get what they're paying for, never contested- but do they actually know what they're paying for? Is there a flaw in this case to even try to describe size consistently? When the trade name, common use size, standardized common use size, and "approximately correct but not to standards" size are all arguably different but use the same loose terminology, there are going to be problems, some of them culpable. I didn't see any claim that Lowes actually marked the lumber *as* NIST or otherwise standards-approved, and the fact that the judge sent them back to the drawing board to look up their *supplier's* terminology leads me to believe it's not that clearcut beyond abject laziness on the part of proofing their suppliers.

Yes, somebody selling non-certified lumber is kind of ridiculous, almost like selling non-USDA milk. Not something a customer would necessarily know to look out for. But, if the claim is not made, fault is a bit more blurry. I for one would never expect Lowes 2x4 of scrap or selvedge grade to be consistent - was that under examination? I don't know. I also wouldn't know what to call it other than "2x4". It doesn't mean only one thing, regardless whether the consumer would be better served if it did... possibly.

If the labeling actually stated it matched NIST standards, there'd be a bigger problem. I suspect it didn't - labeling in any kind of industrial supply is by its nature weak. Would it be good if it did, even to the point of requiring Lowes to include that on the label, or even barring Lowes from selling any that wasn't? Sure, but that's not what they did.

They mandated that the label refer to boards spelling out in so many words that 2"x4" was not the actual size but only a term, and then to list - not permitting the use of standard quote mark abbreviations - the actual size of the lumber product in all labeling. Even before we get to the fact that such a warning really needs to be bilingual, this is utterly stupid. Either mandate the standard, or don't. Mandate listing of the standard, or don't. Prosecute a supplier for misrepresentation and Lowes for *poor* labeling, sure. Effectively demand a paragraph label and the measurement of all wood coming in or out? Explaining to the dullard on the street that 2x4s aren't really 2"x4", all on the label? Get the fuck out of town.

Stiiles > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 17:21

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As another poster here said:

"I'm always amazed when people lament how stupid people are because they don't know some seemingly obvious information.

Here's the deal, not everyone knows everything at the same time. Learning is a continuous process that has to be repeated incessantly to reach people who may not have had similar opportunities in life.

Impatience in such matters is a hallmark of elitism."

victor > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 17:35

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You learn something new every day. I didn't know 2x4s aren't actually 2"x4", nor even close these days. But, that's what I pay people to figure out for me for.

That said, apperantly these 2x4s weren't even up to minimal standards of passing as an an accepted 2x4

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Stiiles 10/28/2014 at 17:35

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Okay. I won't slam people for not knowing that 2"x4"s aren't. However, I'd consider that to be predicate knowledge before anybody tries to do any remodeling, and I don't think it's Lowes' job per se to educate people on that account - only to be more responsible with suppliers. Even knowing that, it would be possible for someone to have bought shady lumber inadvertently, but generally shady lumber itself is on the market for a reason - it has its uses. It's a more forgivable error to buy lumber that looks good but is undersize as opposed to splintery hell-lumber with twists, but cheap lumber is cheap lumber, for forms, cribbing, temporary things of one kind and another... Lawsuits can address an increase of margin of risk to the customer, but the labeling mandate is such that it could only have come from the mind of a bureaucrat. There *is* going to be shitty lumber for those who want to buy it, and you can only open the eyes of the purchaser so far. This decision, I think, did a very poor job of doing so at all.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > victor 10/28/2014 at 17:40

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Yep. So now Lowes has to explain to people that they aren't actually 2"x4", explain to people that that's a trade term, and then further describe in detail the measured size of the stock. Kind of like how a burger chain has to explain that a "quarter-pounder" is an approximately quarter-pound patty of meat (may vary by x) before cooking, final weight unspecified. Just stupid busy-work for somebody in an office somewhere.

Stiiles > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 17:51

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If Lowe's didn't want non-expert people like judges writing their labeling standards, they shouldn't have broken the law. Legal remedies are rarely perfect.

victor > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 17:56

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In the automotive world, you can say the same about HP and MPG stat though.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Stiiles 10/28/2014 at 17:57

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Touche. I just found this all-too-typical for CA jurisprudence horror stories.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > victor 10/28/2014 at 18:00

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Well, perhaps. As much as people rag on standards-writing organizations producing "suggested" law, having a judge without background write "law" is eleventy times worse. At least this is only case law in a suit at this point, not a larger ruling that will screw everybody *including* Lowes, though I can't say that's likely far off.

Stiiles > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/28/2014 at 18:07

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I'm not sure which specific CA cases you're referring to, but I've found that famous US ones that people often tout as being ridiculous - like the McDonalds' hot coffee case (which was not California) - are often not as they represent - that one was a solid case with appropriate results that was misrepresented by biased media reporting and people who didn't know the relevant details. Note that I'm not calling your experience into question about this subject, BTW.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Stiiles 10/28/2014 at 18:21

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Very often when you blow past the outrage inspired by the wrong description of a story there's still something worthy of criticism - very often not what the media depiction seemed to think was relevant and sometimes 180 degrees out. In this case, obviously, "Judge makes hash of labels, meddles, requires customers be treated like children" is a less compelling headline than "Judge denies reality" as far as outrage is concerned... however, the underlying event was not something to be proud of on either side. Bad cases make bad law is an axiom for this reason - I know the McDonald's case wasn't what people think, but it still had some serious flaws on the side of the judgment. Me, I'm not really that outragey. Disgust, well, I've got some of that sometimes.